which is they didn't care much about washington, d.c., and they didn't have any kind of washington presence. >> guest: right. >> host: now they all have a pretty prominent washington presence and growing. >> guest: yeah, they not only didn't care much about washington, they were pretty much determined to ignore government, and, you know, i think it was sort of naive to some extent. but they were, they were living in this world where they thought, hey, we're changing the world, we're innovating, we don't have any trouble raising money, we don't have any trouble attracting talent, and we can see right before our eyes that the whole world is actually changing because of the products we make. so unlike those old industries -- oil, railroads, you know, whatever -- we don't need to deal with the government. i mean, obviously, they had legal departments that were involved in making sure they complied with regulations and paid taxes and all that, but other than that they weren't. and the big wake-up call really was the microsoft antitrust suit which in the case of microsoft obviously force